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MBREEZE · Senior Member

RE: Executive Meeting w/ DCAS on 3/22/18

idontwantnoscrub · Newbie

eze wrote:
I was told that the test wasn't curved, it was scaled.
The purpose of scaled scores is to report scores for all examinees on a consistent scale. Suppose that a test has two forms, and one is more difficult than the other, the tests are scaled to adjust for this. This is what they do on the LSAT or SAT.
Scores have to be scaled to something, here, I was told that it was to the main exam. So, if the average score on the main exam was a 65 and the average score on the make-up was a 68, the make-up was then "easier" than the regular exam. The scores on the makeup are then adjusted to that it more closely mirrors the main exam.

-- Edited by eze on Saturday 24th of March 2018 02:38:06 AM

Imagine if that was done for the 2015 Lt exam! The average score on the main exam was like 55 and the average on the makeup was 80. So everyone should get 25 points added to their score who took the main exam! One thing about government that always concerned me was how some unelected beauracrats get silly ideas on how to improve things only to turn the process into chaos. They become inconsistent in their application of their ideas which is why we are rarely getting 2 consistent promotion exams in a row. Everyone is so concerned about fairness that they make these complex processes with multiple exceptions that only create the perception of fairness, but actually create chaos and disharmony.

As as we learn with Liberalism, the ENDS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. Therefore, when liberals dont like the results, they manipulate the means to get their results, regardless of how unethical their means become (notice how I say liberal and not Democrat, because many Republicans have become globalist liberals). But in their minds, those means are justified because they believe they are fighting against evil.

-- Edited by idontwantnoscrub on Saturday 24th of March 2018 01:20:24 PM

Standby1K · Newbie

This is absolutely on point. The original post Is 100% accurate and can be corroborated by multiple sources. This is not a conspiracy theory, an excuse or stirring the pot. The Department created a DC of Equity and Inclusion, the PC has openly talked about fairness and equity in promotional exams and these types of lawsuits have been brought nationwide due to racial and ethnic disparities in scores on promotional exams. These are simply the facts and those of us privy to this information whether its in re: to meetings, emails, etc. clearly feel that it is important for all test-takers to be fully informed. It is your choice whether to believe it or care about it.

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

From what I was told, everyone who would have passed prior to scaling of the scores passed after scaling. So the scores may have been "scaled up" (I'm guessing that if there was a difference between scores there was a presumption that the lower-scoring administered exam was "harder" and so the grades were adjusted accordingly). The purpose of scaling as was explained to me was to ensure fairness and adjust for difficulty of one test over a different version of the same exam.

As far as throwing a question out based on the percentage of minorities getting that question wrong, that doesn't make sense. If they throw question X out because, for example, only 20% of minorities got that question right then that means that X was a hard question, which means fewer whites also got that question right, so if X gets tossed then everyone benefits, defeating the whole purpose of skewing the results in favor of one group. And if there is a question that inexplicably more minorities got wrong as compared to whites and that question got thrown out how much would that change the final outcome? Not much at all--maybe a fraction of a point at the most. Everyone studies from the same patrol guide and had access to the same schools; no group had a regional or educational advantage or disadvantage over another.

As far as rumors that more points were awarded to people based on race, that is outright unconstitutional. They can't even do that for the SATs and higher education is a much more compelling reason for attempting something like this than local government hiring (according to the United States Supreme Court--see Fisher v. University of Texas, just heard in 2016, and all of the cases that's cited in support of that ruling). If the city wanted to increase the representation of one group over another they must do it "holistically" (ie taking many factors into account, such as experience, language skills, etc. Extra points, alone, based on race, is facially unconstitutional). How would this look in the city wanted to do this? They would have to resort to what some departments do: have a written test that counts for 70% and an interview/life-experience exam worth 30%.

Finally, I've gotten several emails of reports that they know "someone" or know of someone who knows "someone" who "really got a 64 but ended up with an 75 and they're a member of x group". I've been hearing versions of this tale for over 20 years now. After every exam there's always talk about this guy or that gal who didn't study or who said they got a 50 and then ended up placing high on the list. There are many reasons for that: people either ran out of time and transcribed their scores incorrectly, or they don't want people knowing their business, or they're trolling, or they are extremely superstitious and do not want anyone to know they passed until after the grades come out...

-- Edited by eze on Saturday 24th of March 2018 01:40:04 PM

idontwantnoscrub · Newbie

MBREEZE wrote:
Affirmative action, too many minorities got a question wrong so it got thrown out... the craziness ppl spit out. Based on this theory if 4000 cops of a minority group lets say Blacks, that sat for the exam got question 30 wrong then that question got thrown out or graded differently? So then that would mean that if 6000 white ppl got question 45 wrong then that question would also get thrown out or graded differently?? Oh wait no that wouldn't matter because those 6000 aren't minorities so they just have to suck it up and take the loss. You see how stupid that sounds. Stop the nonsense on here. We all work with cops of ALL races who can't walk and chew gum but ppl talk like minorities cant pass exams and they need some sort of help to get them over the hump. Most ppl coming on the job now have bachelor degrees and higher and they come from all different backgrounds. A lot of you are closet racist lol. Be safe out there guys. The goal is to sign out and go home not tear each other down. #makeitto20

MBREEZE, you may be absolutely correct. No one here knows for sure and everyone is speculating until we have facts. I will caution that you should not discount any theory just because you think its ridiculous. I never thought our own government would run illegal guns into Mexico, but it did. I never thought our own government would pay to fund border security in other countries while not seriously controlling our own. I never thought our government would cover up the deaths of Americans at the hands of terrorists at a embassy overseas and try to blame it on an American in the states. I never thought our government would put the needs of noncitizens ahead of its own. I never thought that our government would allow other countries to suck our middle class dry. I never thought that our government could use the IRS and EPA to target people of a certain politics. I never thought that the FBI would be used as a political weapon against ANY political candidate.

Never think because something sounds crazy that it cant or hasnt happened. Our government, which WE ARE PART OF, is capable of anything.

63ASAP · Guru

Thanks EZE! Hopefully DCAS and he job can explain it so people know how things were done and all the questions can be answered. We finally have confirmation that something was done differently here. We now need to know how that was done.

MBREEZE · Senior Member

idontwantnoscrub wrote:
MBREEZE wrote:
Affirmative action, too many minorities got a question wrong so it got thrown out... the craziness ppl spit out. Based on this theory if 4000 cops of a minority group lets say Blacks, that sat for the exam got question 30 wrong then that question got thrown out or graded differently? So then that would mean that if 6000 white ppl got question 45 wrong then that question would also get thrown out or graded differently?? Oh wait no that wouldn't matter because those 6000 aren't minorities so they just have to suck it up and take the loss. You see how stupid that sounds. Stop the nonsense on here. We all work with cops of ALL races who can't walk and chew gum but ppl talk like minorities cant pass exams and they need some sort of help to get them over the hump. Most ppl coming on the job now have bachelor degrees and higher and they come from all different backgrounds. A lot of you are closet racist lol. Be safe out there guys. The goal is to sign out and go home not tear each other down. #makeitto20
MBREEZE, you may be absolutely correct. No one here knows for sure and everyone is speculating until we have facts. I will caution that you should not discount any theory just because you think its ridiculous. I never thought our own government would run illegal guns into Mexico, but it did. I never thought our own government would pay to fund border security in other countries while not seriously controlling our own. I never thought our government would cover up the deaths of Americans at the hands of terrorists at a embassy overseas and try to blame it on an American in the states. I never thought our government would put the needs of noncitizens ahead of its own. I never thought that our government would allow other countries to suck our middle class dry. I never thought that our government could use the IRS and EPA to target people of a certain politics. I never thought that the FBI would be used as a political weapon against ANY political candidate.
Never think because something sounds crazy that it cant or hasnt happened. Our government, which WE ARE PART OF, is capable of anything.

Anything can happen in this world but i wouldn't compare everything you mentioned to a DCAS administered exam. I'm simply saying that if ppl believe points were awarded to a particular race if enough of them got them wrong then the same would apply if the majority race also got a particular question. It doesn't make sense because it wouldn't really change the outcome. But today id's a new today. Let's all go back to waiting to get promoted or for a list to drop.

Leslie · Guru

Thank you for the quick response and accurate info.

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

A few of you emailed and asked for the math assuming the job did throw out certain questions because of disparate results based on race:

Let's assume that 2,000 candidates took the exam, broken down as follows: 75% whites (1500) and 25% minorities (500). The median score is 57.5 for all candidates. Among whites the median score let's say is 60 and for minorities the median is 50.

Let's then assume that they identified 5 questions where the results were really stark--for these 5 questions only 30% of minorities got these questions right (slightly above chance) and for whites 50% got it right (that's a 20% difference and is really extreme, btw. Usually the difference are just a few percentage points off--but let's assume this for our hypo).

Now, if they were to "throw out" those 5 questions then the new median becomes 53.5% among minorities and 62.5% among whites. All that mathematical gymnastics for a 1% difference in scores...and, it actually achieves the opposite of what the city wants. It brings the white candidates (who scored in the median) CLOSER to passing.

I'm not saying the city didn't do this; what I'm saying is it would be difficult for the city to favor one group over another in any meaningful way by just manipulating the throw-outs. I don't have the scores broken down by race so there's a small change that inexplicably more minorities clustered around the 68-69% mark where they could have seen an opportunity to do this, but, again, I highly doubt it.

-- Edited by eze on Saturday 24th of March 2018 02:51:19 PM

sig226 · Senior Member

Cambridge Analytica NYPD/DCAS style

Leslie · Guru

eze wrote:
A few of you emailed and asked for the math assuming the job did throw out certain questions because of disparate results based on race:

Let's assume that 2,000 candidates took the exam, broken down as follows: 75% whites (1500) and 25% minorities (500). The median score is 57.5 for all candidates. Among whites the median score let's say is 60 and for minorities the median is 50.
Let's then assume that they identified 5 questions where the results were really stark--for these 5 questions only 30% of minorities got these questions right (slightly above chance) and for whites 50% got it right (that's a 20% difference and is really extreme, btw. Usually the difference are just a few percentage points off--but let's assume this for our hypo).
Now, if they were to "throw out" those 5 questions then the new median becomes 53.5% among minorities and 62.5% among whites. All that mathematical gymnastics for a 1% difference in scores...and, it actually achieves the opposite of what the city wants. It brings the white candidates (who scored in the median) CLOSER to passing.
I'm not saying the city didn't do this; what I'm saying is it would be difficult for the city to favor one group over another in any meaningful way by just manipulating the throw-outs. I don't have the scores broken down by race so there's a small change that inexplicably more minorities clustered around the 68-69% mark where they could have seen an opportunity to do this, but, again, I highly doubt it.

-- Edited by eze on Saturday 24th of March 2018 02:51:19 PM

EZE do you have any information on an approximate release date?

Tony Rags · Founder/Partner

Guys/Gals:

Ed and I are actively looking into this matter to get some credible answers. I know everyone is frustrated, and rightfully so. Be patient and we will keep you all updated once we have something solid.

Tony

Leslie · Guru

Tony Rags wrote:
Guys/Gals:
Ed and I are actively looking into this matter to get some credible answers. I know everyone is frustrated, and rightfully so. Be patient and we will keep you all updated once we have something solid.
Tony

Thank you!

3yrWonder · Senior Member

eze wrote:
81mm wrote:
So each answer is not worth 1 point ?
Depending on the exam some questions are thrown out and others are graded as all answer choices being correct. If a question is thrown out, say 3, then of the 97 remaining questions each one will be worth 1.03.
I'll be making calls on this matter tomorrow and will keep you all updated on new developments/info

Maybe this is more the case. If you get 70 questions right on a 100 question test you obviously end with a score of 70. The assumption is the grade is based off of 100, maybe this is what changed. We dont know how many throwouts there are but lets say for argument sake theres 5 throwouts. Maybe now the score would be based off of 95 questions instead of the 100. That same score of 70 is now 73.68 and then should there be double answers, those would have to be factored in somehow. This could account for why guys on the Sgts exam not having a whole number as their exam score before seniority/medal points. Lets just wait till the list drops then go from there.

-- Edited by 3yrWonder on Saturday 24th of March 2018 10:56:58 PM

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

Thanks to another source we were able to find out what the formula was for the sergeant exam.

Each question the candidates got right was worth 1 point, however, for each question a candidate got wrong they were only deducted .769 points. We don't know what the formula is/will be for your exam, but it's probably something similar. Attached is a conversion chart for the sergeant exam.

-- Edited by eze on Saturday 24th of March 2018 11:14:42 PM

Leslie · Guru

eze wrote:
Thanks to another source we were able to find out what the formula was for the sergeant exam.

Each question the candidates got right was worth 1 point, however, for each question a candidate got wrong they were only deducted .769 points. We don't know what the formula is/will be for your exam, but it's probably something similar. Attached is a conversion chart for the sergeant exam.

-- Edited by eze on Saturday 24th of March 2018 11:14:42 PM

As long as whats being done benefits all groups equally Im good with it. I understand they want bigger lists just not at the sacrifice of one specific or set of group of people. I should be treated fair just like the man/woman sitting next to me on exam day. Thanks again!

BeefWithBroccoli · Member

So this all confirms that the Sgt exam wasnt graded as normal. But it still doesnt make too much sense...if scaling was done, wouldnt two people with the same score on each exam get a different amount of points added? Theres no need to pay a company tons of $$ to do this. There's still a lot of information missing and this isnt a traditional curve. I also dont get how these rumors went on for months, and all of a sudden we have an answer and a chart. Barely over half the questions right and now you can make the list smdh. And theres definitely some thing brewing with the Lt and Capt exam either the same thing or different. That meeting about grading wasnt the first one I know that for sure. And of course dead silence from all fronts...dcas and job.

Leslie · Guru

BeefWithBroccoli wrote:
So this all confirms that the Sgt exam wasnt graded as normal. But it still doesnt make too much sense...if scaling was done, wouldnt two people with the same score on each exam get a different amount of points added? Theres no need to pay a company tons of $$ to do this. There's still a lot of information missing and this isnt a traditional curve. I also dont get how these rumors went on for months, and all of a sudden we have an answer and a chart. Barely over half the questions right and now you can make the list smdh. And theres definitely some thing brewing with the Lt and Capt exam either the same thing or different. That meeting about grading wasnt the first one I know that for sure. And of course dead silence from all fronts...dcas and job.

I think the formula is based on the average and then the passing grade is adjusted accordingly which could add just a few or a lot. However the 4 yr mark stards solid unless an extention is approved..

2andDone · Veteran Member

Well just from seeing the formula... it doesnt change the order of the list much at all. Curious now to see how it works out.

Tony Rags · Founder/Partner

Right now, it appears that the sergeant exam was indeed scaled as my partner Ed indicated above with that formula used. By doing it this way, they are able to increase the list size while remaining fair because everyone benefited when it was scaled up without causing someone to jump over another from what their original raw score was. In essence, instead of the passing grade being 70, it is now 61 without it affecting list numbers. It remains to be seen if this scaling is done with the lieutenant exam or not. If it is, as Ed indicates, it will most likely require a different formula to be used, but will result in the same fair results.

BeefWithBroccoli · Member

Thanks Ed and Tony. It seems this company decides how the passing score is calculated etc its not just scaling the math doesnt add up to that. Now we know there a formula used to come up with it the question is how. I know its uncomfortable but I do think the original rumor might MIGHT Have at least a tiny bit of weight to it and this coming from an Asian lol. I heard it months ago but didnt believe it. Look at page 64 of what this morris guy said he would do in Connecticut to come up with the passing score www.boardofreps.org/Data/Sites/43/userfiles/committees/personnel/items/2016/p29069/p29069_ex_C.pdf Although ultimately if it just pushes people who would have originally failed to the bottom of the list odds are they wouldnt get made in four years anyway. Im a minority and studied my ass off I passed fair and square but it makes sense that something went down for Sgt and is in the works for us and we dont know what and may never will!

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

BeefWithBroccoli wrote:
Thanks Ed and Tony. It seems this company decides how the passing score is calculated etc its not just scaling the math doesnt add up to that. Now we know there a formula used to come up with it the question is how. I know its uncomfortable but I do think the original rumor might MIGHT Have at least a tiny bit of weight to it and this coming from an Asian lol. I heard it months ago but didnt believe it. Look at page 64 of what this morris guy said he would do in Connecticut to come up with the passing score www.boardofreps.org/Data/Sites/43/userfiles/committees/personnel/items/2016/p29069/p29069_ex_C.pdf Although ultimately if it just pushes people who would have originally failed to the bottom of the list odds are they wouldnt get made in four years anyway. Im a minority and studied my ass off I passed fair and square but it makes sense that something went down for Sgt and is in the works for us and we dont know what and may never will!

Thanks! We'll be following this matter closely and report anything else we find out.

CappedOut · Senior Member

Is that scale based just off of the difference between exam and make up exam scores?

Or did they look at the list and see there were a large percentage of minorities just below passing that they scaled to bring scores up? I DONT think this is the case btw.

Regardless it doesnt sound like it affects anybody. With either system nobody should be jumped or skipped, it just adds people to the bottom of the list. EDIT: Just read the Sgt board and someone brings up a good point. If youre in the 70s you could easily be jumped. Somebody that shouldnt have passed now gets a 70, if they have more seniority points, jst, medals etc they could jump you. I think it only affects those in the 70s.

-- Edited by CappedOut on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:30:23 PM

-- Edited by CappedOut on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:31:08 PM

Dresch58 · Senior Member

This formula was implemented after they found out how many passed and didnt like that number? Or had the formula implemented in to the original grading process? This is nuts!

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

Dresch58 wrote:
This formula was implemented after they found out how many passed and didnt like that number? Or had the formula implemented in to the original grading process? This is nuts!

Well find out more what the actual reasoning is. Maybe they are expecting to promote 2600 sergeants within the next 4 years?

At any rate, if they do cut the list the bottom 762 people on that sergeant list are not original passers so list number 1921 and above would likely be the non-controversial cut off

-- Edited by eze on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:56:35 PM

BeefWithBroccoli · Member

CappedOut wrote:
Is that scale based just off of the difference between exam and make up exam scores?

Or did they look at the list and see there were a large percentage of minorities just below passing that they scaled to bring scores up? I DONT think this is the case btw.

Regardless it doesnt sound like it affects anybody. With either system nobody should be jumped or skipped, it just adds people to the bottom of the list. EDIT: Just read the Sgt board and someone brings up a good point. If youre in the 70s you could easily be jumped. Somebody that shouldnt have passed now gets a 70, if they have more seniority points, jst, medals etc they could jump you. I think it only affects those in the 70s.

-- Edited by CappedOut on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:30:23 PM

-- Edited by CappedOut on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:31:08 PM

You make an excellent point. It was always the assumption that it was a level playing field that if you got a 70 only then does everything else get added in. Scoring at least 70 was the constant for everyone. The constant has changed. If someone with a 65 is now bumped to a passing score they can easily pass over someone in the 70s who would otherwise have less additional points, but been higher on the list. Thats the problem with scaling or curving an exam like this where the ability to get extra points is derived from outside the exam itself. Veteran points for example can help someone with a failing score jump many names after the grading formula is applied to get them to 70. So in essence its true. Someone with a original failing raw score can bounce others who got a passing score pre-formula. On its face thats unfair. The cat is out of the bag and I dont think the job/dcas ever intended to tell us this think about it the sergeants exam has been out for months now. If not for those who brought this out wed never have the answers we got in the last few days. I never posted here before but I wanted to say thanks to the first few people who commented on this thread since Friday with reasonable opinions based on what was found yet were accused of all sorts of craziness. Obviously this had spread long before it made the forums but you guys are forcing action. Amazing!

Ps I dont think the city would have paid over $1 million to someone just to get a bigger list they can do that on their own. We need answers from the top

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

BeefWithBroccoli wrote:
CappedOut wrote:
Is that scale based just off of the difference between exam and make up exam scores?

Or did they look at the list and see there were a large percentage of minorities just below passing that they scaled to bring scores up? I DONT think this is the case btw.

Regardless it doesnt sound like it affects anybody. With either system nobody should be jumped or skipped, it just adds people to the bottom of the list. EDIT: Just read the Sgt board and someone brings up a good point. If youre in the 70s you could easily be jumped. Somebody that shouldnt have passed now gets a 70, if they have more seniority points, jst, medals etc they could jump you. I think it only affects those in the 70s.

-- Edited by CappedOut on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:30:23 PM

-- Edited by CappedOut on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:31:08 PM
You make an excellent point. It was always the assumption that it was a level playing field that if you got a 70 only then does everything else get added in. Scoring at least 70 was the constant for everyone. The constant has changed. If someone with a 65 is now bumped to a passing score they can easily pass over someone in the 70s who would otherwise have less additional points, but been higher on the list. Thats the problem with scaling or curving an exam like this where the ability to get extra points is derived from outside the exam itself. Veteran points for example can help someone with a failing score jump many names after the grading formula is applied to get them to 70. So in essence its true. Someone with a original failing raw score can bounce others who got a passing score pre-formula. On its face thats unfair. The cat is out of the bag and I dont think the job/dcas ever intended to tell us this think about it the sergeants exam has been out for months now. If not for those who brought this out wed never have the answers we got in the last few days. I never posted here before but I wanted to say thanks to the first few people who commented on this thread since Friday with reasonable opinions based on what was found yet were accused of all sorts of craziness. Obviously this had spread long before it made the forums but you guys are forcing action. Amazing!
Ps I dont think the city would have paid over $1 million to someone just to get a bigger list they can do that on their own. We need answers from the top

One reason they did this may have been to favor those who are senior. When you apply the formula to the sergeant list the only ones affected are those who scored between a 70 and 76. No one who originally scored a 77 and above should have gotten skipped by anyone who originally failed. When you apply the maximum points to someone who scored a 69 (even assuming a few medals, but no JST*) their score still falls short of a 3 year test-taker who got a 77.

* the JST is not really an issue since as a group it tends to favor younger candidates.

eze · Co-Founder/Owner Rising Star

From the sergeant exam: below are how an original passer could have gotten passed over by someone who originally failed. As you'll see, someone who score a 65 could only pass over someone who got a 71 or 72. With the maximum being a person with max seniority scoring a 69 compared with a 3 year candidate scoring a 76.

raw score and after curve and MAX seniority final score vs raw "original passing score" and MINIMUM seniority

69 82.937 77 83.013

68 82.168 76 82.244

67 81.399 75 81.475

66 80.63 74 80.706

65 79.861 73 79.937

64 79.092 72 79.168

63 78.33 71 78.399

62 77.554 70 77.63

-- Edited by eze on Sunday 25th of March 2018 03:45:10 PM

MBREEZE · Senior Member

eze wrote:
Dresch58 wrote:
This formula was implemented after they found out how many passed and didnt like that number? Or had the formula implemented in to the original grading process? This is nuts!
Well find out more what the actual reasoning is. Maybe they are expecting to promote 2600 sergeants within the next 4 years?
At any rate, if they do cut the list the bottom 762 people on that sergeant list are not original passers so list number 1921 and above would likely be the non-controversial cut off

-- Edited by eze on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:56:35 PM

Keep in mind 1921 might not really be 1921. There have already been ppl with list numbers above 1921 who have resigned or been terminated and I'm sure more ppl will resign before the 4 years are up. Some people below 1921 might actually get promoted if they are able to rise on the list due to resignations or terminations or maybe even passovers. Also keep in mind there is an option to extend the list if they want to.

Theforceisstrongwiththisone · Guru

eze wrote:
From the sergeant exam: below are how an original passer could have gotten passed over by someone who originally failed. As you'll see, someone who score a 65 could only pass over someone who got a 71 or 72. With the maximum being a person with max seniority scoring a 69 compared with a 3 year candidate scoring a 76.

raw score and after curve and MAX seniority final score vs raw "original passing score" and MINIMUM seniority
69 82.937 77 83.013
68 82.168 76 82.244
67 81.399 75 81.475
66 80.63 74 80.706
65 79.861 73 79.937
64 79.092 72 79.168
63 78.33 71 78.399
62 77.554 70 77.63

-- Edited by eze on Sunday 25th of March 2018 03:45:10 PM

Thanks eze and Tony! You two are true professionals and thats why I'm rocking with rising star for the next Capt exam...whenever that might happen!

But something is still fishy...why implement a curve system after all these years?! Everyone knew what was wrong with the exams (i.e., same makeups, weekend warriors, seven-day and sabbath scammers, LOD last minuters)...the 9 heroes laid it all out and changed it.

So the question remains...why implement a curve?!

PunkyBrewster · Newbie

This has to be ILLEGAL! If the NOE and civil service law makes the passing grade 70, it was done with the intent that you lose 1 point for every question answered wrong. If a question is thrown out, then everyone gets 1 point for that question. By doing crap where they play with point value per question, they are trying to do an end run around the NOE and the law. Obvious legal trickery that wont stand up to scrutiny. Like idontwantnoscrub said, its seems the ends justifies the means and to get their DESIRED RESULT, they manipulate the process. Total BS. Yes, we want as many people to get promoted as these are our fellow brothers and sisters, but if we do away with any sense of standards, what is the rank worth other than the pay?

2andDone · Veteran Member

PunkyBrewster wrote:
This has to be ILLEGAL! If the NOE and civil service law makes the passing grade 70, it was done with the intent that you lose 1 point for every question answered wrong. If a question is thrown out, then everyone gets 1 point for that question. By doing crap where they play with point value per question, they are trying to do an end run around the NOE and the law. Obvious legal trickery that wont stand up to scrutiny. Like idontwantnoscrub said, its seems the ends justifies the means and to get their DESIRED RESULT, they manipulate the process. Total BS. Yes, we want as many people to get promoted as these are our fellow brothers and sisters, but if we do away with any sense of standards, what is the rank worth other than the pay?

Sorry but Ill take this over previous issues including the rampant cheating of knowing the exam prior to.

jovin · Veteran Member

Ive been on this forum for years and I swear I still cant believe 63asap took the time to type all that. That thing was longer than my PIW's.

DRPapi1983 · Guru

jovin wrote:
Ive been on this forum for years and I swear I still cant believe 63asap took the time to type all that. That thing was longer than my PIW's.

Lmaoooo,....

Standby1K · Newbie

PunkyBrewster wrote:
This has to be ILLEGAL! If the NOE and civil service law makes the passing grade 70, it was done with the intent that you lose 1 point for every question answered wrong. If a question is thrown out, then everyone gets 1 point for that question. By doing crap where they play with point value per question, they are trying to do an end run around the NOE and the law. Obvious legal trickery that wont stand up to scrutiny. Like idontwantnoscrub said, its seems the ends justifies the means and to get their DESIRED RESULT, they manipulate the process. Total BS. Yes, we want as many people to get promoted as these are our fellow brothers and sisters, but if we do away with any sense of standards, what is the rank worth other than the pay?

The NOE says the passing grade is 70%. Not 70 correct out of 100. The method they use attributes different point values and then scales it back to 100 so your raw score converts to a percentage of 100. Its not illegal.

Berniescammer · Newbie

Here it is...

List will NOT be held

Department has list. DCAS is doing veteran pt verifications. If there is an examinee who is unable to prove vet or disable vet pts first week of April then DCAS will adjust the list. DCAS is located in the same plaza as headquarters.

Mayors administration, particularly 1 person, was unhappy with the number of passers that reflected one race. The aim was not to raise the average of scores. It was to create a larger passing pool to include more of the under represented race. It is legal. No original passer will "lose" out, just more people invited to the party.

I wil not share sources to back up my claims. Take it or leave it.

63ASAP probably knows more than he/she initially stated, as I do.

tweezy · Senior Member

Berniescammer wrote:
Here it is...

List will NOT be held

Department has list. DCAS is doing veteran pt verifications. If there is an examinee who is unable to prove vet or disable vet pts first week of April then DCAS will adjust the list. DCAS is located in the same plaza as headquarters.

Mayors administration, particularly 1 person, was unhappy with the number of passers that reflected one race. The aim was not to raise the average of scores. It was to create a larger passing pool to include more of the under represented race. It is legal. No original passer will "lose" out, just more people invited to the party.

I wil not share sources to back up my claims. Take it or leave it.

63ASAP probably knows more than he/she initially stated, as I do.

so then when's the list coming out?

Berniescammer · Newbie

When the PC says ok

63ASAP · Guru

jovin wrote:
Ive been on this forum for years and I swear I still cant believe 63asap took the time to type all that. That thing was longer than my PIW's.

If there's one thing I've become passionate about over the years, is promotional exams biggrin . Gotta keep the people informed! lmao.

63ASAP · Guru

Berniescammer wrote:
Here it is...

List will NOT be held

Department has list. DCAS is doing veteran pt verifications. If there is an examinee who is unable to prove vet or disable vet pts first week of April then DCAS will adjust the list. DCAS is located in the same plaza as headquarters.

Mayors administration, particularly 1 person, was unhappy with the number of passers that reflected one race. The aim was not to raise the average of scores. It was to create a larger passing pool to include more of the under represented race. It is legal. No original passer will "lose" out, just more people invited to the party.

I wil not share sources to back up my claims. Take it or leave it.

63ASAP probably knows more than he/she initially stated, as I do.

Thanks for the confidence, but I actually know little more than my posts! lol. It was important to inform that the scores were indeed adjusted, and the potential reason why. People have a right to know. I did not know how it was done to the sergeant or to ours, but I'm glad it started a dialogue and now we more way more than we did a few days ago. This is our livelihood, and to some at DCAS, it's a game. They even went so far as to ensure it was legally justified, awarding $1.5m to a company with a history of overseeing and administering exams for this very purpose. Make no mistake the Department is keenly aware to what's going on. It's open to interpretation whether increasing the pool in the manner they did to the sergeant exam is fair to everyone, or even the right thing to do in principle. But one thing is certain- the exam was manipulated, and they didn't want to tell us. We can expect the same on our exam, but in what way? Remains to be seen. The subsequent rumors of weighted questions, people jumping over others, etc...I have literally nothing to back that up. I just know that something went down, and my belief as to why (based on what I found). That proved to be correct, and I make no apologies for it. Promotion on this job is now a series of nonsense that varies from one exam to another. All I want is a transparent process. Tell us what you did and how you did it...if anyone feels slighted from that, let the courts figure it out.

-- Edited by 63ASAP on Monday 26th of March 2018 12:05:45 AM

-- Edited by 63ASAP on Monday 26th of March 2018 12:14:47 AM

Dresch58 · Senior Member

Then everyone gets promoted.

monkeybones · Senior Member

da43355c70ef3bbe354d26ccd0e09e0bd28f3afc

-- Edited by monkeybones on Monday 26th of March 2018 01:03:09 AM

CappedOut · Senior Member

Arent these the first few exams to have different make up tests?

Maybe all of this (the scale, hiring the firm etc) is because of that.

Mirroring the exams make sense. If the average score of the original exam was a 80, and the average make up was a 90, you have to account for that to make it fair. So you can either scale it down or up, for the sergeants they seemed to scale it up.

Things are different now because for the first time people are taking make up exams that are completely different exams.

JustWonderin · Guru

YES. I stated this a while ago.....The reason why the test was scaled was because of the fact the make-up exam was different, and allegedly harder than the initial exam. A small group of those who took the make-up hired a lawyer and planned a lawsuit. Apparently they were told that the test would be "curved" as a settlement.

Leslie · Guru

Forget the scaling, curves and all this non-sense that we cant do anything about. When is this list coming out?!?

nupecop · Senior Member

#word

Flambino · Senior Member

I heard they are retroactively scaling the 2015 LT exam. The original test takers are receiving an extra 32.7 points.

Leslie · Guru

Flambino wrote:
I heard they are retroactively scaling the 2015 LT exam. The original test takers are receiving an extra 32.7 points.

Lol I thought the scaling was 69.99 points

yougonow · Guru

Why would they make a completely different exam rather than just switch the questions around, which is how they kept passing. Guys would post answer keys on here and guys would copy it and then use it on make up exam day.

Leslie · Guru

yougonow wrote:
Why would they make a completely different exam rather than just switch the questions around, which is how they kept passing. Guys would post answer keys on here and guys would copy it and then use it on make up exam day.

Bc morons would talk about the questions on this site and at work in detail to the degree that switching the order didnt matter