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This is pure nonsense. Sure, with every exam comes controversy and complaints, however THIS EXAM STANDS ALONE in atypical fashion. The entire exam is flawed for a multitude of reasons. To say SHOULD vs MUST is word semantics is correct, but isnt the entire test based on "word semantics" ? If you were to say the desk officer SHOULD make a Command Log entry each tour the member elects to safeguard his/her firearms, you'd be 100% wrong on test day and in the real world when your sitting in the trial room facing charges. The Patrol guide states, the desk officer MUST make a Command Log entry each tour the member elects to safeguard his/her firearms. DCAS clearly understands the difference between the two and to say we should have interpreted SHOULD as an absolute statement after studying tirelessley to recognize the and distinguish the difference between the two, is assanine. The bottom line is that there instructions were vague and not absolute; not clear.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:23:09 PM
You proved my point, there are consequences if one SHOULD only answer 100 questions and therefore, in the context of this statement a MUST would have been the more accurate and an absolute INSTRUCTION. INSTRUCTIONS are supposed to be "spelled out" that's the sole purpose of an INSTRUCTION ! So, your reasoning is 100% correct, hence MUST would've been the only appropriate wording.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:30:28 PM
Clown to Be, this had nothing to do with "TIME MANAGEMENT" this has to do with their INSTRUCTIONS or LACK OF CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. Please read slower and more carefully before you respond, otherwise your effort is wasted. By the way, DCAS appeased the Lts by tossing 17 questions out. So, the test does not necessarily have to be "tossed out," but DCAS will find a way to fix this problem if they don't want it to spiral into littigation.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:45:41 PM
lol, actually the difference is that, for the example you are specifying, the Department is mandating a particular action, hence the word "must". There are penalties for failure to follow these instructions. For the test, the word "should" (in the context of asking you to answer all questions) is perfectly appropriate since neither the Department or DCAS are forcing you to take the Sergeants exam. If you would prefer to only fill out 100 questions and fail, then that is your choice.
You proved my point, there are consequences if one SHOULD only answer 100 questions and therefore, in the context of this statement a MUST would have been the more accurate and an absolute INSTRUCTION. INSTRUCTIONS are supposed to be "spelled out" that's the sole purpose of an INSTRUCTION ! So, your reasoning is 100% correct, hence MUST would've been the only appropriate wording.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:30:28 PM
MAYBE YOU SHOULD LEARN ON HOW TO TAKE A TEST IN WHICH YOU MUST LEARN TIME MANAGEMENT IS ONE IMPORTANT ELEMENT. To anyone who thinks this test will be thrown out, good luck on that one. Go file a lawsuit, i heard the lts can give you the name of a good lawyer
The instructions were clear. There weren't a magnitude of reasons for anything. The NOE was clear, the instructions infront of the test were clear. Those who were prepared and wise enough will be sergeants and the rest will take the next test. Jetblue your frustation is understood, never the less there is no protest or amount of emails that can fix this. The lawyers are DCAS know the difference between MUST and SHOULD. Gamblor is right this test was a cake walk compared to the mess in the LT test and nothing came out of that. There is confusing and frustration surrounding every test, but DCAS always covers themselves. If the those 30 questions were meant to confused the cheaters, it worked because instead everyone has spent the last week drowning in a glass of water.
__________________
Disclaimer: 'Regular' Elite -***NOT*** a 'True' Elite.
Clown to Be, this had nothing to do with "TIME MANAGEMENT" this has to do with their INSTRUCTIONS or LACK OF CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. Please read slower and more carefully before you respond, otherwise your effort is wasted. By the way, DCAS appeased the Lts by tossing 17 questions out. So, the test does not necessarily have to be "tossed out," but DCAS will find a way to fix this problem if they don't want it to spiral into littigation.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:45:41 PM
FYI the LTS test didn't get appeased, so few people pass DCAS had the flexibility to play with 17 questions, otherwise they would have to scramble to give another test.
__________________
Disclaimer: 'Regular' Elite -***NOT*** a 'True' Elite.
"covered themselves" in what regards ? The purpose of the amended notice was for 3 main reasons, 1. To reinforce the fact that Cell Phone would be strictly banned from the testing site. 2. To inform test takers that there would be a possibility that theres a posssibilty that they may have to take the test on a computer. 3. To inform test takers that there would be additional questions for research purposes. None of the above address the issue in regards to the clarity of their instructions. Those who chose to be ingnorant to the fact that the instructions were not absolute and clear are just surcumming to a flawed test. If you can be content with that so be it. I'm sure it wasn't the first and it won't be the last time you get walked over in your career. This is not "frustraightion" nobody on here knows whether they really passed or not. I'm speaking for what's right. I refuse to tolerate wrongdoing Whether I pass or fail. This is my make up, I'm not going to be one of those who gets promoted and just folds every time. That's become the culture of this job. Unfortunately that type of culture will never change until we add a few more good bosses; I'll be that. It's always easy to follow a pact rather than lead one.
Arguing with people who put up an answer key for us doesn't make the situation better.
i have 33 questions in disagreement with the answer keys they put up for us, I know the stressed feeling and in my head the probability is going to be they will throw out more of my right answers then wrong answers and I will probably get a 69.
no one has a clue what is going on until we walk into the protest. Saying someone isn't a good boss because they aren't agreeing with you is childish. Everyone needs to protest and needs to see for themselves what is going on.
i don't see how creating online drama makes anything better. They did it. They will get away with it. And this test truly defines "lucky Saturday"
This is not drama Nor isn this "childish." I'm not calling anyone out. All I'm saying is that being a good "boss" requires some intagable qualities that some choose not to exemplify for themselves. These qualities are not testable, either you have the right character or you don't. How can one lead when they allow others to walk over them and refuse to put up a fight for themselves. There's too much division in this department. Nobody is unified and thats a problem
Clown to Be, this had nothing to do with "TIME MANAGEMENT" this has to do with their INSTRUCTIONS or LACK OF CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. Please read slower and more carefully before you respond, otherwise your effort is wasted. By the way, DCAS appeased the Lts by tossing 17 questions out. So, the test does not necessarily have to be "tossed out," but DCAS will find a way to fix this problem if they don't want it to spiral into littigation.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:45:41 PM
hey guess what jet blue??? ready for this one?? this clown to be is a sergeant...omg, how did i do it??? i actually followed instructions and used time management as a test taking tool. So theres always next time big guy!!
Clown to Be, this had nothing to do with "TIME MANAGEMENT" this has to do with their INSTRUCTIONS or LACK OF CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. Please read slower and more carefully before you respond, otherwise your effort is wasted. By the way, DCAS appeased the Lts by tossing 17 questions out. So, the test does not necessarily have to be "tossed out," but DCAS will find a way to fix this problem if they don't want it to spiral into littigation.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:45:41 PM
hey guess what jet blue??? ready for this one?? this clown to be is a sergeant...omg, how did i do it??? i actually followed instructions and used time management as a test taking tool. So theres always next time big guy!!
What do you a call the biggest clown that passes the Sgt exam? SGT......
Clown to Be, this had nothing to do with "TIME MANAGEMENT" this has to do with their INSTRUCTIONS or LACK OF CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. Please read slower and more carefully before you respond, otherwise your effort is wasted. By the way, DCAS appeased the Lts by tossing 17 questions out. So, the test does not necessarily have to be "tossed out," but DCAS will find a way to fix this problem if they don't want it to spiral into littigation.
-- Edited by JetBlue on Sunday 27th of October 2013 03:45:41 PM
FYI the LTS test didn't get appeased, so few people pass DCAS had the flexibility to play with 17 questions, otherwise they would have to scramble to give another test.
You need to get your info right. There was not 17 throw outs on the Lt exam. It was actually 3 with 20 total changes. Here is the breakdown to show you , there is a chance if you guys protest .
13 - inbasket - sending cop to hospital who just took eday 40 - hazmat truck PAR 42 - this was a triple on the proposed key
Doubles:
2 - choose SOL 4 - something with a map 9 - prioritize some tasks 17 - community board meeting ? 28 - ID theft classification 36 - TEA victim of crime 37 - graffiti notification 45 - notify state central registry for abused kid 50 - coked up cop standing roll call 52 - fingernail/tattoo 61 - removing property for court 89 - e day ques 93 - 2 cops late to roll call 100 - authorizing OT for some major project
Wow !! So, you mean to tell me your already a CLOWN ? Where'd you buy your red nose ? I need to know because I'm on the list, lame. You have nothing better to do than look at Sgts forum for a test you didn't even take. Lmao. Wipe your face
I actually took the test and got 87 right out of the first 100 questions. If you were sitting in a jury and I tell you a story of how for the last 30 plus years all promotional exams for the Nypd have been 100 questions and 6 hours to complete. Then hopeful eager police officer who reads slightly below normal speed hears there's an upcoming sergeants exam. Then I begin to study when dcas announces the test with no mention of anything different about this test. So I decide to put my heart into this test give it all I have spend 7 months of my life committed to this test and 2 weeks before the test and after I paid my money and put my time and energy in they change the rules and an announce a few extra questions. I start to get nervous knowing I'm a slow reader because I know I'm going to struggle to get to just 100 questions. On the day of the test they don't just give a few questions they give 30 extra with no extra time. Dcas did something never done before. If dcas told me before hand I would have never signed up for this test. Jury I want money for the time I wasted studying for 7 months that I would have never spent if they announced this experimental test to start with. I deserve to be compensated for dcas evil doing.
Wow !! So, you mean to tell me your already a CLOWN ? Where'd you buy your red nose ? I need to know because I'm on the list, lame. You have nothing better to do than look at Sgts forum for a test you didn't even take. Lmao. Wipe your face
yep im the ring leader! Ur still trying to join my circus. Let me know how that goes for u. Btw...maybe if ud study alil harder and READ directions you wouldnt have to take two sgt tests to TRY and get promoted. That message doesnt pertain to those hard working officers out there just the lil b!tches who love to cry about word semantics.....wahhhhhhhhhhh go write me sum parkers u loser
Typical Clown, one of those losers who joined the PD because he was constantly beat up and punker throughout his life. Now has a Sgts. shield and the lame has nothing better to do on a weekend than forum watch. LMAO gets some friends or a partner who cares to be around a herb. LMAO ! By the way, this was the first Sgts exam I took and like I said, I passed. See you in the ranks you LAME. Now find something better to do with your life. HAHAHAHA LMAO !
One other thing, I never wrote a Parker. I work under SOD, which means I made more than you this year. LMAO.. Hence the reason I waited so long to decide to even take the Sgt exam. So far I'm at 126 for the year and counting Hahaha !! And no, what I do isn't "blood money," I have a brain. This is light work. Go do a self inspection LMAO
The comments from some of you really shed some light on why people are always saying the job is dead. The job is dead because cops like some of you are unable to support your fellow MOS when they've been clearly wronged. You got yours and that's all that matters, right? Or maybe you're a super fast test taker so clearly no one else needs more time, right? I read quickly. VERY quickly. But it's an exam, and I like being careful and checking over all of my answers in case I missed something the first time or misread something. I did complete the exam, but many didn't. And I would never consider telling them that they were too slow, or to go learn time management, or learn to read faster or some other crap like that. The test takers on this exam got thrown a curve ball big time. Stop acting like people are whining without good cause.
I can't find my last post about this; the topic appears to be deleted, but here's the gist of what I wrote last time :
Yes, DCAS sent out an amended NOE informing everyone of the research questions that would be on the exam. The NOE states that these additional research questions will not count towards the final score. Both of these in and of themselves would be fine, IF DCAS had indicated on the test day which of the 30 questions were the research questions and therefore optional. This isn't a matter of the use of the word "should" vs "must". I'm talking about the bottom line here. The problem is that they didn't tell us which questions count and which don't, and therefore the NET EFFECT is that ALL questions must be completed in order for you to assure that you completed the 100 that docount.
Want to make the exam 130 questions? Fine... then make them allcount. Or tell us which don't count so we can skip them if we want.
What is not okay is extending it 30% longer by throwing in research questions and forcing you to answer them (you HAVE to answer them all) and then not scoring the 30 extra questions you were forced to answer.
This will get challenged by a lawsuit and it's not going to simply die out. I'd put my money on that.
Honestly at the end of the day there is no controlling what will inevitably happen, the test will be scored and list numbers assigned and the chips will fall where they may. This job eats its own, no one helps each other out and thats the way it is. Cops only care about what directly affects them and dont stick together anymore. Best of luck to everyone fighting the good fight, but remember at the end of the day if you dont pass you still got a good job. Thats right, as bad as this job is the city provides for my family and way of life and I thank god every morning when im driving through my quiet neighborhood after my midnight in my dump of a command that I dont live there. Dont let negativity bring you down, you got a long road until your list comes up.
Typical Clown, one of those losers who joined the PD because he was constantly beat up and punker throughout his life. Now has a Sgts. shield and the lame has nothing better to do on a weekend than forum watch. LMAO gets some friends or a partner who cares to be around a herb. LMAO ! By the way, this was the first Sgts exam I took and like I said, I passed. See you in the ranks you LAME. Now find something better to do with your life. HAHAHAHA LMAO !
so then why are you crying so much? since when is sod(narcotics) aka crack head patrol any good?...and don't lie and say you are not in narcotics
Typical Clown, one of those losers who joined the PD because he was constantly beat up and punker throughout his life. Now has a Sgts. shield and the lame has nothing better to do on a weekend than forum watch. LMAO gets some friends or a partner who cares to be around a herb. LMAO ! By the way, this was the first Sgts exam I took and like I said, I passed. See you in the ranks you LAME. Now find something better to do with your life. HAHAHAHA LMAO !
so then why are you crying so much? since when is sod(narcotics) aka crack head patrol any good?...and don't lie and say you are not in narcotics
the guys that are in narcotics that are on crack head patrol are equivilant to the lazy F#cks in patrol that had to be forced to due there job rather than sit in the RMP trying to figure out how to **** can the next job... for every bureau there are bad apples.. the truth of the matter is that in narco there are guys that work their asses off and are not just looking for crack heads...
and one more thing, narcotics is changing big time... all those guys that are on crack head patrol are getting shafted now.. cause it has come to a point where it is completely being micro managed (which is not entirely bad, it has become necessary) and all the bosses want to know what are the individuals doing to prove their existance, and crack head patrol aint cutting it anymore...
sorry i just hate that comment... needless to say i am a NARCO RANGER...
-- Edited by MJV231 on Monday 28th of October 2013 01:43:47 PM
-- Edited by MJV231 on Monday 28th of October 2013 01:47:02 PM
Us guys in narco who have to deal with kites and grabbing bodies with the uncles or doing CI buys to get warrants still managed to find time to study for this test. As an add on to what MJV and wise cop said, no matter what area of this job you are in, we still bleed blue and we still feel shafted by Dcas. Granted, it was a little harder studying for this test during job time because narco is very time consuming as is the squad and other specialty units, but those of us who did fills our brains with nonsense for months and spend upwards of a $1,000 still don't feel satisfied with the end results of what Dcas did. I don't think we have a lawsuit because Dcas covered themselves with the NOE and the email stating there will be extra questions that don't count. They also don't have to give extra time (even though they should have as a courtesy) because they run the show. All we can do is attend the protest session and band together by agreeing on those questions where the answer choice wasn't clear and convincing.
remember, we don't have Yanosik and the guys from fast track, key, and rising star in our corner on this one. We need to all agree on questions that we think can get tossed if they were unfairly asked.
-- Edited by Jdawg on Monday 28th of October 2013 04:25:21 PM
Typical Clown, one of those losers who joined the PD because he was constantly beat up and punker throughout his life. Now has a Sgts. shield and the lame has nothing better to do on a weekend than forum watch. LMAO gets some friends or a partner who cares to be around a herb. LMAO ! By the way, this was the first Sgts exam I took and like I said, I passed. See you in the ranks you LAME. Now find something better to do with your life. HAHAHAHA LMAO !
so then why are you crying so much? since when is sod(narcotics) aka crack head patrol any good?...and don't lie and say you are not in narcotics
the guys that are in narcotics that are on crack head patrol are equivilant to the lazy F#cks in patrol that had to be forced to due there job rather than sit in the RMP trying to figure out how to **** can the next job... for every bureau there are bad apples.. the truth of the matter is that in narco there are guys that work their asses off and are not just looking for crack heads...
and one more thing, narcotics is changing big time... all those guys that are on crack head patrol are getting shafted now.. cause it has come to a point where it is completely being micro managed (which is not entirely bad, it has become necessary) and all the bosses want to know what are the individuals doing to prove their existance, and crack head patrol aint cutting it anymore...
sorry i just hate that comment... needless to say i am a NARCO RANGER...
-- Edited by MJV231 on Monday 28th of October 2013 01:43:47 PM
-- Edited by MJV231 on Monday 28th of October 2013 01:47:02 PM
There is no reason to talk down on any function in this job. The truth is that someone has to do patrol functions. Individuals doing crime can look down and say condition guys are summon's w****S, but guys in the squad look at the crime cops as want to be DTs. Even individuals in NARCO who by the way are doing god's work, ,may seem insignificant when compared to counter-terroism or intel, but the truth is that everyone has their function. Don't get it twisted.
__________________
Disclaimer: 'Regular' Elite -***NOT*** a 'True' Elite.
Typical Clown, one of those losers who joined the PD because he was constantly beat up and punker throughout his life. Now has a Sgts. shield and the lame has nothing better to do on a weekend than forum watch. LMAO gets some friends or a partner who cares to be around a herb. LMAO ! By the way, this was the first Sgts exam I took and like I said, I passed. See you in the ranks you LAME. Now find something better to do with your life. HAHAHAHA LMAO !
so then why are you crying so much? since when is sod(narcotics) aka crack head patrol any good?...and don't lie and say you are not in narcotics
the guys that are in narcotics that are on crack head patrol are equivilant to the lazy F#cks in patrol that had to be forced to due there job rather than sit in the RMP trying to figure out how to **** can the next job... for every bureau there are bad apples.. the truth of the matter is that in narco there are guys that work their asses off and are not just looking for crack heads...
and one more thing, narcotics is changing big time... all those guys that are on crack head patrol are getting shafted now.. cause it has come to a point where it is completely being micro managed (which is not entirely bad, it has become necessary) and all the bosses want to know what are the individuals doing to prove their existance, and crack head patrol aint cutting it anymore...
sorry i just hate that comment... needless to say i am a NARCO RANGER...
-- Edited by MJV231 on Monday 28th of October 2013 01:43:47 PM
-- Edited by MJV231 on Monday 28th of October 2013 01:47:02 PM
There is no reason to talk down on any function in this job. The truth is that someone has to do patrol functions. Individuals doing crime can look down and say condition guys are summon's w****S, but guys in the squad look at the crime cops as want to be DTs. Even individuals in NARCO who by the way are doing god's work, ,may seem insignificant when compared to counter-terroism or intel, but the truth is that everyone has their function. Don't get it twisted
I 100% agree with you, that's why I said that with every bureau, division, group or team there are bad apples... Everyone in the NYPD serves a purpose and a necessary purpose at that...
Us guys in narco who have to deal with kites and grabbing bodies with the uncles or doing CI buys to get warrants still managed to find time to study for this test. As an add on to what MJV and wise cop said, no matter what area of this job you are in, we still bleed blue and we still feel shafted by Dcas. Granted, it was a little harder studying for this test during job time because narco is very time consuming as is the squad and other specialty units, but those of us who did fills our brains with nonsense for months and spend upwards of a $1,000 still don't feel satisfied with the end results of what Dcas did. I don't think we have a lawsuit because Dcas covered themselves with the NOE and the email stating there will be extra questions that don't count. They also don't have to give extra time (even though they should have as a courtesy) because they run the show. All we can do is attend the protest session and band together by agreeing on those questions where the answer choice wasn't clear and convincing.
remember, we don't have Yanosik and the guys from fast track, key, and rising star in our corner on this one. We need to all agree on questions that we think can get tossed if they were unfairly asked.
-- Edited by Jdawg on Monday 28th of October 2013 04:25:21 PM
Jdawg.....I understand ur plight. But to sit here and argue about wording on instructions of should or must means ur a freaking moron who can't possibly figure out anything on ur own and shouldn't even be on this job. Should I constantly remind officers on how to take a damn test??? U complete the WHOLE test. If u didn't complete it....u either didn't know the material well enough B- don't do well on tests and should practice ur test taking skills and sharpen them for a test like this. C just a complete moron who can't follow directions and HAS no right leading personnel on this job. ITS NOT UR RIGHT TO BE A SGT.....the job has said u earnvthat right by passing this test...whether you agree w it or not the job could care less
I am talking to those who keep saying that the last 30 "DO NOT COUNT". The NOE did stated that additional questions will be added to the test and the front of the test package clearly stated that additional questions will be spread through out the test and you "SHOULD" answer all questions"...if you left, after Just 100 questions with time on the books don't cry because you were warned and you are a grown up and "SHOULD know better"..and if you did not bothered to see what they were asking in the last 30 questions than shame on you. All 30 extra questions were PG relevant questions not "Research" questions...I did take a bathroom break and I finished the entire test with 2 minutes to spare and I am a slow reader. It's a shame what DCAS did as many did not have time to finish. The Time allotted "SHOULD" be the argument not whether the first, middle or last 30 counted....This was all a sneaky way of DCAS diluting the promotional list. They gambled with people lack of concentration, " Hair-bag" attitudes, and "lucky Saturday aficionados" at the cost of legit test takers and by the looks of it DCAS Won.
